Not quite.

If I understand correctly there was a concern that the new RHML would be overpowered in tournaments or fleet operations against GSF ... or some other esoteric area 99% of players never get involved in and RLML were nerfed to match the newly introduced and pre-nerfed RHML.

In other words ..I do not think anyone even looked at RLML at all, they added a long reload to the RHML and then just ported it across without any research "as is" to the RLML.

Logically the smaller weapon system should have had a shorter reload.

wow you guys complaining over a good weapons system is absurd. Try flying a brutix and getting within 5k of your target to apply dps.... bunch of cry babies you all are.

Remember destroyers : they are the frigate klling weapon of choice, not RLML on a cruiser.

SeriouslyGǪ who's trying to sell who on these? They're just not that good - otherwise most wouldn't need convincing. You'll be further ahead with Javelin HAMs if you need the range or Rage HAMs if you need the extra hitting power. This is a frigate-class weapon on a medium-class ship, and if you run into anything bigger than a frigate and get pointed - you're screwed.

A Caracal have three times the ehp of a destroyer and is faster than them. Making RLML worse than destroyers to kill frigate is the bare minimum to expect.

And yes, RLML shouldn't exists in the first place (they come from a time when the game was too different for this question to mater), that's why Rise came with a new mechanic which is still effective to kill frigates, even if you don't like it.

I don't have an agenda against missiles, but some missiles are OP and missile users tend to not be happy when their missiles are not OP.

The Corax for example being plain worse than the Talwar, but that's only because of light missile explosion velocity being useless most of the time because LM will hit their target for close to full damage in most cases.

If LM weren't that good at applying damage, the Corax wouldn't look that bad. Because Talwar excepted, the Corax is very good at killing frigates already, so why should we buff something already very good at doing its job ?

I tried it recently. Having to warp between every frig kill sucks really hard and you can't really shoot anything other then t1 frigs.

Worst part is when a target gets out after you shot 2-3 volleys at them and you sit there without enough missiles to kill another frig.

The difference with before is that you can't just blindly warp in a fleet of a dozen frigates and kill half of them without even trying. You now need to have some awareness about what is around you and coming and actually work for your solo kill by separating the fleet and everything you need to do when alone vs blob.

FEED TROLL AT OWN RISK! (the one you're referring to)

Has anyone tried the RLMLs with Fury ammo - or has it all been with Faction?

I know it kills the range, but it also significantly ups the damage - and if you've double-webbed and scrammed your target anyway - I can't imagine that the damage application would be any less. As for the ammo swap issue, if they were sincere - they'd have addressed it by now. If they can't fix it due to technical aspects, then it's incompetence for releasing this change without the proper testing and peer review. "It sounds cool" doesn't cut it.

I think we've established that they have an extremely limited role, that being frigate-killing under ideal conditions. Since most frigates can probably outrun you, your only chance is to scram and dual-web the suckers. It's already been shown that rate of fire bonuses lose out to pure damage bonuses, hence the Fury ammunition suggestion (since this is probably a 10-15% bump over Faction).

Yes, well - someone says "OP" and the missile nerf bat makes a return appearance...

if you have your target webbed and painted you might aswell use hmls or like you know any other real weapon system.

Do I sense an inty pilot?

and RLML's weren't OP, HAM/HML's just sucked worse.

You only account for reload in pve or for POS bashing to be honest...

The amount of tears here is amazing though a you people should try pvp with turrets, just for comparison.

an alternative way of buffing RLML's a bit rather than a straight clip increase and shorter reload time across the board..

meta 0 - base mod
1 - increase clip size to 30 and reload time to 35secs - reduce ROF by .5 secs
2 - reduce reload time to 20 secs - reduce clip size by 1
3 - increased ROF, reduce reload time to 35secs increased fitting need
4 - reduced fitting need .. reduce clip size by 2 reduce reload time to 30 secs
T2 - increased ROF increased fitting need .. can use T2 missiles .. reduce reload time to 35secs

p.s. we still need missile mods/ missile rebalance sharpish .... also add medium missiles please a nice inbetween from RLML and HAM's with better tracking missiles

A medium missile class would be nice (then we could buff heavies) - I just don't see it in the cards, unfortunately. Every time someone even remotely suggests bringing the number of missile-based weapons on par with lasers, hybrids or projectiles - the anti-missile lemmings seem to spring up everywhere. I have no problem with returning RLMLs and RHMLs to the original/first iteration. Instead of a rate of fire or damage nerf, I'd instead suggest just reducing ammunition capacity.

Folks - we're clearly on our own here. CCP is either unwilling (hubris) or unable (ineptitude) to address these shortfalls. If missiles are going to be in our future we're going to have to come up with some abstract and creative solutions for them.

Screw that. I've got a sizeable chunk of skill training into them, and I happen to like Caldari hulls. Plus you can't beat the "whoosh" sound for FX. And I refuse to switch over to drones or turrets just to become another lemming...

Turrets > Missiles is an outdated statement

The statement is outdated as with the recent massive buff to torpedoes and HAMs/rockets (application of guided missile precision) a good deal of application issues got fixed. Now with the LR med. turret buff, these turret variants have become viable for the first time, they yet do not surpass heavies in some cases (artillery outside of a fleet-scenario).

I said that I only started using them recently, so I obviously missed out on usage of formerly broken heavies, but I had the pleasure to toy around with rapids/HAMs and torps. As I'm normally using them in scenarios requiring every bit of dps (sologanking nullratters, tackling people around wormholes - the place where sub 60k tanks and weak half-assed active tanks don't exist) in a tandem of sleipnir+tengu, I'm pretty sure I can draw clean comparisons regarding turret/missile-damage application to potential damage. That quotient (sorry, don't know the correct english term off the bat) appears to be quite favorable for missiles, as especially slightly out-of-scramrange-kiting works like a charm due to them applying their damage regardless of the distance between attacker and victim - within the max-range limits.

The argument that missiles got successively nerfed over the recent years is void. Without doubt. Heavies got nerhammered after reigning over fleet-pvp for a long time (mostly due to obscene cost-efficiency rather than being untouchable - well, slightly untouchable with former resistboni on the drakehull), and tbh a Drake applying 450dps homogeniously over 80km was just OP without limits.

Besides that, GMP for all, Cruises got lifted from oblivion into the pvp-scene (typhoons FTW) with FOTM-ambitions, HAMs got their raw damage increased by 25% at some point (and ratting tengus went from 790 to 1010dps using regular 5% hardwirings.

Tl;dr: Missiles are all but inferior to turrets. They tend to have application issues which are totally equalized by the use of appropriate tackle (2 webs, 1-2 bonused paints). Remaining is high, sometimes even freely selectable damage (like claymore, vengeance, raven, typhoon, interceptorgu).

Yeah, cause the top 20 on eve-kill have any relation to performance

M8.

Without even looking jp those stats, I'd guess you find the following:
Gardes, curators, 250rails, heavy pulses, 350/425rails, bouncers, mega pulsrs, 1400 artillery, maybe meta4 tachs, maybe light neutron blasters, scorch bombs, shrapnel bombs, warriot 2s and 720 arties (depending on the number of muninns BL deployed this month)

That's cause when you join some timerbashfleet, those tend to be heavily utilized. Extra carefully explained for you: the biggest blobs I fly in are 10-15 people in a fleet at once. Just cause missiles suck in 10% tidi doesn't make them the terrible platfom you declare them to be.

Or with your thoughts *oh **** he's actually giving arguments, must defend my f1-fleet movement-therapy-autism by claiming sov-grinds to be relevant pvp-experience... and missiles suck, cause I have never used them yet*

M8. Inexperience doesn't justify your narrowminded view.

Edit: r's and e's fixed <.<

So after weeks of frustration, I finally found a niche hybrid PvE-PvP role for rapid light missile launchers. It's fairly specialized and requires a very unique (and expensive) setup. ButGǪ It outperforms all other weapon systems (including any kind of missile or turret) as well as extending me options to deal with those uninvited frigates that keep cropping up.

I can't overstate that this is a very specific role, and as such everything with the ship (modules, rigs, implants) conforms to a single theme. I ran several live runs this morning and it performed flawlessly. No kill mails, as this wasn't engineered as a frigate hunter-killer. It's intended to either get you out of a jam or provide a little "incentive" if someone strays too close or launches a flurry of drones at you.

I'm going to train to Light Missiles-V for the extra +5% damage, although I'm sticking with my Faction RLMLs as this gives me an extra volley (or 5.55% more DPS). A lot of the cheaper RLMLs only hold 16 rounds, so Faction actually gives you 18.75% more DPS for the same fitting (albeit more expensive). It's too bad that missile specialization doesn't augment damage, as even with the rate of fire bonuses T2 launchers are still slower than Faction.

For 2014 I'm not holding out much hope that we'll see any changes or improvements with missiles. With the increasing rate of drone use and 'drone assist', I think CCP has opened Pandora's Box. This whole turret vs. launcher debate is moot; drones out-track, out-range and out-alpha anything else. They're not subject to tracking disruption and sentries are almost impervious to ECM. The only thing you can temporarily do is sensor dampen your attackerGǪ that is, until he 'assists' the drones to someone else. Then there's the issue of increasing node load, instability and crashes. So I think that this will have to be urgently dealt with, but with the prevalent usage of drones - expect a lot of tears and opposition that will force this to drag on.

Or maybe they'll just kill Drone Assist a week before the next release.

HAMs are better than HMLs, but damage application still sucks against anything smaller than a cruiser. Unless you're outfitted with rigors, target painters or webs - you might as well be throwing rocks.

I hate to admit it, but I had a lot of fun this evening with the new RLMLs.
(yes, I'm half expecting the ground to open up under me any second nowGǪ)

I decided to stop screwing around with PvE for an evening and work on a hardcore PvP fit. Wow. It's amazing how ships flee in terror when you make a point of specifically going after them. I killed two Catalysts, a cyno Reaver, Retriever and Herron. I almost got a Hawk earlier but lacked dual webs so he managed to eek out of jam range. The Retriever even netted me some Russian fan mailGǪ Most of these barely had a chance to establish a lock and fire a volley or two before they exploded. Gate and station guns were actually more of a nuisance.

Now that I have a good idea of what the RLMLs are capable of, I plan to wreak as much havoc as possible. The right fit is key, and good implants certainly don't hurt. It also helps to be fearless.
Kill Count: 2 Destroyers, 2 Frigates, 1 Miner GǪ Losses: 0

So I guess the simultaneous engagement with the Vagabond and Vexor doesn't count...

The thing is: most missile users just want more range.

I'd recommend fitting a targrt painter. or getting someone in a hyena.

[Caracal, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hobgoblin II x2

Our Problems are now gone! 290DPS with my setup... 2058ms 8.2k shields and 24k EHP.
What more could you ask for?


[Caracal, New Setup 2]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hobgoblin II x2


504 DPS! 19K EHP!
Now you pesky missile spewing demons can stop being greedy and play the game.

Sure, all of us want a ship that can either A. have a tank and do damage or B. have range and speed...but you can't have them all on one ship. Will the HAM Caracal beat a Thorax? Probably not. Will the HML Caracal take 10 years to kill something? Probably. This makes the game fun though because it gives your adversaries the opportunities they need to have their backup arrive. This, in turn, gets you more kills in the long run. Enjoy my setups and get lots of kills. Those wanting to make donations are able to do so at their leisure! This may or may not be satyr.

It seemed like we were being thrown a bone, but it just seemed that way...

Hi, time to visit this thread again!

I wanted to let those of you still paying attention here know that we aren't satisfied with the current state of rapid launchers and are expecting to make changes in coming releases to improve the situation.

For now, I don't have details to give you but I want to let you know what we're looking at.

First, and most importantly, it's important to me that this mechanic feels fun to use. It still hasn't been that long since they hit TQ but a lot of the initial feedback is not great on this aspect. It's likely that for Rubicon 1.1 we will make a small adjustment to both RLML and RHML to either give you more active time or less reload time, I'll let you know when that change is pinned down exactly. Going past 1.1 we want to collect more data and feedback so that if we make a larger change (which we are considering) to the system as a whole it's as informed as possible. That larger change would come either in 1.2 or in summer depending on what it was.

Second, I've been working on the ammo swapping issue and will not be able to get in a change for 1.1. Solutions for this have been messy and we aren't satisfied enough with any of them to try and make them fit in this release. As we iterate after 1.1 I want to solve this issue one way or another.

Last, I'm doing some investigation for getting some kind of reload timer work going. Can't say if and when this would happen but it would have enormous value so I'm looking into it.

Actually thats not the case. If your able to kill the cruiser within one load of the RLML the RLML is a better choice in cruiser vs cruiser. Untill it has to reload it still does over 100 dps more, requires fewer webs to apply max dps, has nearly twice the range, and can fit a lot more tank.

As an extra, I'd likee to see the outcome of.
HML Tengu Vs 250MM Rail Proteus - fighting in web and point range. I know a 100Mn AB Tengu is pretty good but how would it fair vs other T3's.

Are you saying they would not engage each other or at all in web range??
Some time ago I got caught jumping into a WH in a tengu by a prot. At the time I 'just' had the skills to fly the Tengu and should not have been jumping into an un-scouted WH but alas it did happen. Not sure about everyone else but I have often found myself in situations I don't want to be in and have numerous loss mails to show for it.

I take your point on the damage type, but that's rather the point of missiles isn't it? To be able to select damage type? That's part of what makes them so good.

I guess if I agreed with you, I'd choose an absolution over the damnation. I also use a (caldari) nighthawk when the fleet is shield tanked. I have no issue with it.

That same toon also uses a covert ham tengu (overpowered!)

I've never been able to make caracals and the like work for me, so maybe this is where your missile discontent comes from? The weapons themselves are fine and quite well balanced. It's possible that some caldari hulls need a look, but I'm no expert there.

That's one explanation. Another is that being a user of all weapon systems, I see the benefits and drawbacks of them all and use other modules to compensate.

so missle application mods where would we place those:
lows - would need to saccrifice BCUs so we would need to go with some damage rigs and sacrifice 1-2 tank rigs - seems a bad idea

CCP Rise, any RLML or RHML Rubicon 1.1 update you might be able to share with us?
Hint: RLML -+ 28 ammunition capacity, RHML -+ 36 missile capacity.

It's an interesting question.
Just so long as anyone who decides to attempt that comparison remembers that Sentries are LARGE weapon platforms, and therefore should be compared to Cruise Missiles, Torpedoes, Heavy Drones and Large Turrets.

Of course there is bound to be some brainless muppet that decides to compare them to HM's

CCP Rise, any update on what we might expect for Rubicon 1.1 with RLMLs and RHMLs? It would be have a bit of head's up so we can get you some feedback before it goes live at the end of January. A 55% bump in ammunition capacity would be preferable, but I'm not opposed to a 20-second reload (or some combination thereof). Thanks.

You keep saying that... but I've yet to see your proposal(s) put forward. Come up with a better idea and I'll gladly get behind it. Right now I've suggested three:

1. Buff ammunition capacity to RLML and RHMLs by 55.5%.
2. Reduce the reload time to 20-seconds (or some combination with #1).
3. Return RLMLs and RHMLs to their Odyssey/pre-Rubicon iterations, and adjust ammunition capacity to the same as proposed in #1 (RLML = 28/T2, RHML = 36/T2).

I've highlighted which is the general player preference, even though this is probably the least realistic out of the three suggestions.

The numbers and charts I posted show that a 55.5% ammunition bump is still less overall DPS than the original RLMLs and RHMLs, so why isn't it realistic? All three scenarios address the one current stumbling block with RLMLs and RHMLs: implementation of faster ammunition swaps.

I can't believe that CCP Rise would add insult to injury with the scenario you propose... CCP Rise, any comment?

CCP Rise has posted a rapid missile update here.
I have endeavored to provide a balanced counter-proposal based on the various feedback and discussions we've had. Comments welcome and appreciated, thanks.